https://www.frontendhappyhour.com/static/js/751.e12f4324.chunk.js

1(self.webpackChunkfront_end_happy_hour=self.webpackChunkfront_end_happy_hour||[]).push([[751],{751:e=>{e.exports=function(){return"\n\n<p><strong>Ryan Burgess</strong><br />\nWelcome to a special episode of the front end happier podcast. Back in March for Women's Day, we did a live panel discussion at Tech no day, we were joined by the conference organizer Gen Ashley, on a live panel discussion on diversity inclusion in tech. This is a recording from the panel discussion with Stacy Shirley and myself talking with Jen. Hi, everyone.\n\n</p>\n<p><strong>Gen Ashley</strong><br />\nAnd thanks again for joining us at techno day. And we have a very, very special episode, today of front end, happy hour. And we have some of the usual suspects. who joined that, that podcast. So I'm gonna let them introduce themselves. Shall we start with you, Ryan?\n\n</p>\n<p><strong>Ryan Burgess</strong><br />\nYeah, sure. Well, thank you so much for having us. I'm Ryan Burgess. I'm a software engineering manager at Netflix. Thanks for introducing front end Happy Hour, which is a podcast that the three of us our regular panelists on and we talk about careers, engineering, I mean, all sorts of things. It's just been a lot of fun continue to do that, even during quarantine, which has been fun. Yeah.\n\n</p>\n<p><strong>Shirley Wu</strong><br />\nHello, my name is Shirley Wu. I'm an independent creator of data visualizations, which means I work with clients on in many different industries to help them tell visual stories with their data.\n\n</p>\n<p><strong>Stacy London</strong><br />\nAnd Hi, everybody, I'm Stacy London. I'm a senior front end engineer on Trello at Atlassian. And I'm very happy to be here. Thanks for having me.\n\n</p>\n<p><strong>Ryan Burgess</strong><br />\nAnd so today, we are actually discussing inclusion and diversity in tech, which is, I feel like it's a broad topic. So I'm really excited that we can probably cover a lot of fun things. But I figured to start with, I'd be curious to hear all of your thoughts. What makes an inclusive environment,\n\n</p>\n<p><strong>Stacy London</strong><br />\nit's, it's so many things, right? I think it's probably different for each person, like what they what they think means what inclusion means for them. But for me, it just sort of means that like, my ideas are valued, I'm listened to I'm not interrupted or talked over, I'm given space to speak, I can be myself, I have psychological safety on the team that I'm a part of, or even the broader company as a whole. I think also, like a place where people who are you know, jerks are not tolerated, like there's a culture where those kinds of people are not welcome. Because they're there. They're not kind and they're not welcoming. And they don't create that kind of environment where people want to work together. So I guess those are some of the big things that popped to my mind.\n\n</p>\n<p><strong>Shirley Wu</strong><br />\nSo I think for me, it's currently a little bit interesting, because I work for myself. So I am a team of one. So I guess I'm both very inclusive and exclusive for myself. But I if I think back to when I was at full time jobs, um, I have to admit, this is I guess, the confession that I left of full time, tech, because it felt very, not very inclusive. I, I'm one of those that exited out. And I was like, I'm better off on my own. And that was like four or five years ago. And I'm starting to reconsider. Because I'm seeing initiative more and more initiatives like this more conversations like this, that's much more about being welcoming. And, and so I'm starting to reconsider looking into full time jobs again. But I do remember when I was at a full time job, the number one thing is that I have a lot of opinions. And so I think to echo what Stacey was saying, for me personally, it's about first being able to say my opinion and knowing that that's not going to get me punished in any sort of way. And then also valuing that a diversity of experiences usually make for a much better output of work.\n\n</p>\n<p><strong>Ryan Burgess</strong><br />\nI like that. Jen, anything you wanted to?\n\n</p>\n<p><strong>Gen Ashley</strong><br />\nYeah, so yeah, I mean, it's basically kind of the same, right? Where you don't feel like you don't belong, I think I think basically, is that right? Yeah, you need to feel like you belong, know, in this organization. And in so should you saying that? There's a lot of like initiatives now and conversations around diversity inclusion, I think it's getting better. Obviously, it's not jumping by, you know, like a, like a, like a large lever or something like that. But at least we know that there's some movement, at least, it's not perfect. But the important thing for me is that people are actually doing something, you know, not everyone's doing it but I know that there are people or organizations are consciously doing something to change, like the environment, that they're in You know, putting like the

1ir employees into. So I think that that's the, that's very important. Because I always say, you know, like, we were the problem. But you know, and we keep on talking about the problem for me, what's more important is what, you know, actions are we taking to actually address that problem? Because it's, yeah, I know, it's nice to hear about, you know, like all this talk about, you know, recognizing that this is problem, blah, blah, blah, but I need like concrete actions. Definitely. That's, that's what I'm always looking for. Yeah, I\n\n</p>\n<p><strong>Ryan Burgess</strong><br />\nthink it's like, it's always great that we're talking about it and recognizing we can do better. And that's great. But it's like, if there's no action items, or nothing's changing, that's kind of, it's upsetting that it's just like, Okay, well, then what's the point, but I also think it's really nice is to recognize it takes time to it's not going to just happen overnight. But it's like, every little bit helps. And so people that are putting actions out there, or even just being a little more aware, and how you approach situations, I think that to me is going a really long way. But it just it does take time. One of my favorite quotes, actually, I'm gonna quote for a Myers, who's written the book, What if I say the wrong thing, she does a lot of great inclusion work, but she she had said is like diversity is being invited to the party inclusion is being asked to dance. And I always thought, like, always resonated me with like, really well, where it just makes a ton of sense that it's like, cool, like, we're asking people looking for them to come. But if we don't make it an inclusive environment, who cares like that they're they're like, special when I think about companies is like, if I hire someone, like who, you know, maybe different makeup than my team has, if that's not an inclusive environment, they're gonna bounce and then so we don't benefit from them from their diverse opinions. So that's always one that's really resonated with me,\n\n</p>\n<p><strong>Stacy London</strong><br />\ntotally, you see, a lot of these companies put a lot of like, money and effort into like, recruiting and hiring, you know, to make their the makeup of their, their company more diverse, but then they they're not doing the fundamental thing, which is really changing the inside culture, to make sure that once you hire people that are, you know, bring diversity into your company, that they also just want to stay because it does feel inclusive and that they belong, like, that's the huge thing.\n\n</p>\n<p><strong>Ryan Burgess</strong><br />\nYeah, that's it goes such a long way. And like think that's to kind of a lot of your points of saying, like, Hey, I'm respected for my opinion, like, people are gonna hear me out. They may not agree, and that's okay. Like, we're all going to have varying opinions. And it's, it's really about, like, how do we think about those holistically and be challenging each other and doing that, especially when we're creating products, because that's what a lot of us we're talking about, right? We're building applications, we're building websites, we're building things in which a diverse set of people are using, it's not just made for the single type of people. And so you want those different opinions and different walks of life for people coming in join into to help build a better product. And I think that's the ultimate goal, too.\n\n</p>\n<p><strong>Shirley Wu</strong><br />\nYeah. And to your point about product, I think that it's, again, this is me, like, you know, from the outside looking in, I think it's such an interesting movement that's happening, that's now diversity. And inclusion is oftentimes very much connected to the bottom line, because to your point, and, you know, we want products that serve the very diverse set of people that use these products. And so if they don't, then that product is going to, it's not going to get picked up, or it's even gonna get controversy. And so I think, to the point about like, I really appreciate the conversations. I think that's like such a great first step. But I think even speaking of like actions, I think there's now more and more reasons why companies really n

1ow see the need to invest in it. And I appreciate that, that we, as a society are trying to push for companies to do better via their bottom line.\n\n</p>\n<p><strong>Gen Ashley</strong><br />\nYeah, definitely. And, you know, companies has to be really conscious about the fact that, you know, they need to build products that you've sent, you know, their users, right. And, for example, if you're building, you know, a health app that forgot about menstruation for one thing, because it was built by either a group of engineers or all men, you know, obviously that's that's wrong, then then that's why you need to have diversity and passivity in the team, because that way, you get to consider in a lot more things that you would normally if you're a homogeneous genius group.\n\n</p>\n<p><strong>Ryan Burgess</strong><br />\nAbsolutely, I would not have a clue on how to contribute to that. So, you know, I probably wouldn't make a great product for it. So it makes a ton of sense. We have been mentioning to about products, and like companies and how they've been investing in it. What are you all seeing Like, how are companies investing in it? Because I think I've seen it show up in different ways. And I'm curious how you all have seen companies starting to think about it more.\n\n</p>\n<p><strong>Stacy London</strong><br />\nI guess one thing I've seen a lot of companies trying to address, ones that are doing it, I think better than others are trying to dress it at a more structural issue. So they're, you know, making sure that their hiring pipe their processes, don't have things like unconscious bias, and trying to do a lot more training of people that are going to be doing interviewing at the companies to say, like, here are things you shouldn't be doing. And here's the ways to like, make sure that you're interviewing fairly, and that you're not Yeah. Making people aware of their unconscious bias, so that it's not a part of that. So that that's, I think, a really good thing that I see. Also companies that are proactively doing things like if women have been traditionally, under leveled or under promoted or underpaid, they proactively are going in doing analysis of their data of the in the company and saying, we're going to automatically re level people or automatically adjust salaries just so that everybody's on a fair playing field. It's it sucks that that took, you know, a long time for companies to actually do that. But the fact that they are trying, I think is really good. I think Salesforce did that, in the last few years, like massively went through and just adjusted everybody to make sure salaries were fair. So things like that, I think are really important.\n\n</p>\n<p><strong>Ryan Burgess</strong><br />\nLike that training part two, because now you're you're getting people to be more aware of it and think about those things. Because how does a problem scale? Right? Like, it's, you can't just have like, a lead diversity inclusion person for your company. I mean, that's a great start. But like, the whole point of it is like, how do you really build this mindset across the company? And so that you're catching those things, even in your own bias? Or just being more aware of it? We all have biases? Absolutely do. And so just starting to think a little more holistically of like, how does that show up?\n\n</p>\n<p><strong>Stacy London</strong><br />\nYeah, and to John's point earlier, just like actions over words, like, don't write, don't write a blog post about how your company values diversity, do something about it through like these tangible things.\n\n</p>\n<p><strong>Gen Ashley</strong><br />\nAnd we know, we we cannot solve this, or fix all of this, you know, in our lifetimes, even right, but at least something is being done. And you know, said yeah, that's, that's really very important. And it's not just signaling, but really doing something I said, cc tangible, which, you know, people and other companies who might look up to, and hopefully a copy, because for me, I always say this, that, for this particular problem. Education is the key, because we all as we said, we all have this vices, and really, it's just a matter of addressing it by educating ourselves, and everyone around us. And yes, so, and companies have got a big, I think, responsibility to not just do something for them internally, but really support the community who's doing something as well to address you know, the problems, which, at the end of the day, there are a lot of individuals who are, you know, putting up all these projects for, you know, underrepresented people in technology, but they don't get the funding. Honestly, I know a lot of people that ask to be even spend their own money, you know, to get the programs going, when you have like billion trillion companies, we have got the budget. And when you luckily, we have some support for this particular conference. But but you know, there's been instances where people really have forked out their own money. And I kind of feel like that's not fair, because they're already giving their time, you know, energy and effort to this and companies, all you can do is like, give them some budget to supp

1ort the work that they're doing. Hmm.\n\n</p>\n<p><strong>Ryan Burgess</strong><br />\nI also love that you brought up Jen, the community aspect, like the fact that we're at a conference, you know, for tech in diversity is is amazing. But I think about that, even when, for myself or even pushing that towards like others in in Netflix is thinking about which conferences are we speaking at? Or, you know, how are we investing? What are we sponsoring? And I think those are aspects which I find it really important I care a lot about the community. And so I want to make sure that I'm thinking strategically about like not showing up to a all white men panel right? Like I want to make sure that I'm not adding to the problem. And I mean, I've totally made the mistake and sometimes it wasn't like conscious or purposely it just like I didn't put the effort into maybe dig in and say like, oh what's like what are your speaker lineup look like? Have you thought about diversity inclusion, like what how does that show up for you? And like, what do you think about that in the conference? And and I think more and more we question these things. It starts getting others to think about it too, but like, it takes time. I'm not expecting everyone to do 100% do the best job right? away, nor if they didn't think about it, it's like, that's, that's fine. Hopefully we can have that conversation. I'm not going to shame someone for doing that. But I want to have the conversation about like, how we could maybe make it better. And maybe, maybe I'm not the best panelists to be on maybe I can pull someone else from my team or colleagues across the company that that have a different opinion and would be better suited for a panel.\n\n</p>\n<p><strong>Shirley Wu</strong><br />\nYeah, I really like\n\nwhat you said, Ryan, about efforts, like all of this takes effort on every individual aspect. And I, I really like also going back to what Stacey was saying about, the retention part just resonates with me so much of like, you can get so many people through the door, but if you can't get them to stay, because it just feels so toxic. That's that's such a big problem. I have so many friends that have tried their best to stay in, you know, managerial positions, like going from IC up to a managerial positions and tried their best and then like just kind of like the wave the white flag and then left the tech industry. And to the point of retention, I think that like, I love everything that's been covered, because I think the diversity part yeah, that's that's for me company, you know, that could come from on top of being like, we're just going to hire more diverse people. But the the inclusion part, the retention part is very much I love that you said again, that it's structural, because it really is like I can be made to feel unsafe from just one individual on my team. And it's it's the responsibility of every single person. I mean, me included everybody to be very conscious of how we're making others on the team feel. And so I really like going back to that word effort. Like it's, I think the action, the biggest action is that, like, we just we need to put in the effort every one of us have, like, even as someone that's like a woman of color, I feel like there's Yes, so many things, like we mentioned earlier that I have ingrained bias, and I'm just that constant effort, I think, is the most important to me personally. Yeah, I think\n\n</p>\n<p><strong>Ryan Burgess</strong><br />\nit's like it becomes like all of our responsibility to like surely if if someone said something, you know, inappropriate to you. And I catch that, like, I could just say not say nothing and be like, well, it's not my problem. But that's like that, to me doesn't feel right, either. It's like, why is that surely his responsibility to have to take on that burden all the time? Or, you know, I think it's like for all of us to catch those things and just say something, and, you know, and it's not to shame the other person either, because like, we all make mistakes, oh, my goodness, I have made so many mistakes, and I will continue to make mistakes. But I think like just being able being conscious and open like, oh, wow, Hey, Ryan, you probably shouldn't refer to that as X y&z or, you know, like, that's probably not the best word to use here in this scenario, and me not knowing I'm like, great, I now I know. And I'm sorry, I said that and just like owning that. So I think I look to others, if I kept someone say something wrong, or treat someone different, like, I'm going to say something, and I hope that they're receptive to it, and that we're all learning and in this together,\n\n</p>\n<p><strong>Shirley Wu</strong><br />\nactually, that's a really good point. Because especially early on in my career, I didn't realize what kind of what unsafe comments looked like, if that makes sense of like, what bi

1as looks like of, and this is a story that like, I think, Ryan, you tell sometimes, the first time I was at React Rally, and I was giving a talk, and then suddenly somebody shouts from all the way like in the back and interrupts my talk, and just tells me to up the font size because he can't see. And then I think we like have a little bit of an exchange and I move forward, because in my mind, and then I just pick up the talk again, because in my mind, I'm like, yeah, he just couldn't see like, and like, I didn't think too much about it. But Ryan, a few others afterwards was like, WTF, like, that was completely unacceptable. And you know, like, I think, did you call out that person on the behalf? I can't remember. But I think even just that moment of somebody else telling me, hey, that's unacceptable behavior that I didn't even think about, I think has made me more aware of all of the kind of little microaggressions that we encounter day to day. And I think that, you know, really helps because it means that I'm more aware. And that means that I can be on the lookout for other people too.\n\n</p>\n<p><strong>Ryan Burgess</strong><br />\nYeah, and not one that was a time where I was like, you also want to be conscious of like, when's the right time to say something? And in that scenario, do I want to add to the problem and interrupt your commerce, like, be like draw attention to that interrupt you're already been interrupted when you're speaking to me now add to that, Stacy was actually sitting right beside me. And I was like, we were both appalled at it. In that scenario, where where I would best like take that approach is find the person find this man after the fact and just mentioned those like, Hey, did you know you're aware that like, that was probably not the best time to ask that. And I understand like you couldn't see that. But she was right in the middle of her presentation, and that that can really throw someone off. And I think a lot of times, unfortunately, this does tend to happen more to females that there'll be up there speaking, and, and they're getting interrupted, it's less likely going to happen to me. And so like, it's just like, I'm a little more conscious of that for sure.\n\n</p>\n<p><strong>Gen Ashley</strong><br />\nYeah. And we all obviously, you come from a place where we don't know nothing, or we don't know a lot about, you know, this subjects that were happening right now. And it's fine. Right? But you know, recognizing that, yes, you don't know much about this, and you need to learn, you know, it's like a key thing. So accept that. And yeah, and yeah, just because she says, Yes, in the beginning, you'll be very uncomfortable with this thing. And I think if someone said, the other day, when I was giving a talk, we all have to start being comfortable, comfortable with being uncomfortable. Because this is it's obviously not a very simple subject. It's a delicate thing. We and we can all make mistakes as we actually try and correct the situation we're in. But yeah, it's, I think we just have to be forgiving of everyone like, or, you know, I just said Ryan, figure or be cognizant of things that that need to be addressed. And maybe try and find, like, ways to address them without having to kill each other.\n\n</p>\n<p><strong>Ryan Burgess</strong><br />\nYeah, cuz you don't want it to be like this huge frustration thing that we're fighting about, it's like this is we're trying to make things more more of inclusive at that point. And I think of like, another thing I know, we were talking about different tech companies or, or companies in general, like the things that they're doing. One thing I've been impressed with, and I know Stacy, last year has done a lot of this, too, is working on inclusive and language within the company. And like, the cool thing is you don't have to necessarily have people is catching people it like meaning is like, it doesn't mean I don't have to be the police saying like, Oh, you shouldn't use that word because of XY and Z, you can actually have things like Slack bots, that that catch a word, and they're like, oh, maybe you should try a different word. And so it's like educating without having not or in pull requests, like, which, you know, we're coding and some things might get said poorly, and it's like, a pull request, something could be caught there and let letting the person know, I'm really a big fan of the effort that a lot of companies and, and just even the open source community is done to, to get rid of the Git master branch, like we're moving towards, we've all kind of decided Maine is the better name for that. And it's not a huge, it's not an easy thing, and companies to just drastically change. So that is a It sounds simple, just changing the name, but it's a big effort. And I love that companies are investing that and just trying to be more inclusive that way. It's like, oh, we made mistakes in the past. Cool. Let's try and fix that and make go forward in a better scenario.\n\n</p>\n<p><strong>Gen Ashley</strong><br />\nI didn't like understand, I know, some companies were also doing that. That very thing, when I've seen that. It's like a very simple change, like, really, really simple change, like, and you know, the effect of that is so you know, so great. So good. Why won't you do it? I just don't understand it.\n\n</p>\n<p><strong>Stacy London</strong><br />\nExactly. Like a language just matters so much. And words matter more than people I think, give them credit. And it creates an atmosphere, the way that you talk about something creates an atmosphere that is part of a culture that was part of what creates cultures language, and yeah, and just choosing to use a different word or a different phrase is, is not that difficult. But sometimes Yeah, maybe you've said a word all your life and it's sort of like the it's it's it's the default that you go to like, like saying, Hey guys, when you when you're talking to a group that is not just all men, like that seems like a simple change. Although if it's the thing you've said, your whole life, like, you just have to catch yourself and but you can you can learn we're our brains are elastic, they can change you can With practice, you can change any of that.\n\n</p>\n<p><strong>Ryan Burgess</strong><br />\nI think it gets back to my point is it does take time. I love that example, Stacey because it you catch yourself and you're like, oh, no, like, it's fine. It's like, nobody's gonna be like, Wow, you messed up big time. But it's like, as long as you're being a little more conscious of it and trying to change that I think is amazing. And I know Stacy, like you and I've had these conversations years ago, where there was something I remember it was something like hey, guys, it was something else. But you were you're like, oh, that's probably not the best word. And I it's it's stuck in my head. And now whatever. I guess it hasn't stuck in my head in the fact that I can't remember what it was. But it's like it's something that now I've trained myself like just to not say anymore, just being more aware and more conscious of that. And I think that that's amazing. And it was just even as appear you saying like, Oh, it's probably not the best word and I'm like, Oh, wow, I never even thought of that. Now it's like I'm thinking about that more and be more conscious\n\n</p>\n<p><strong>Gen Ashley</strong><br />\nand even We, you know, we women like we use guys, right? Yeah, the bus or like all the time, and I'm the same, and I had to really like, learn to change it and now I replace it with folks. Most of them, I sometimes forget, but you know, I, I know I at least I know I made an effort, it was very, very I get uncomfortable at first because I used to like folks like, it wasn't like a common thing I don't know, if you if in the US is more common in a way to refer to a group, but the thing in the UK, it's not really much of a word that you guys is still the, you know, the thing that most people use, but yeah, it was very uncomfortable. But, you know, at the end of the day, it's like, what we say 

1what confidence is a muscle is that you can exercise this is also another like muscle you can exercise. So go do it.\n\n</p>\n<p><strong>Ryan Burgess</strong><br />\nI love what you brought up to Jen a bit is the like, different countries in different, like where you live, things can drastically change too. And so, you know, something that you're like, wow, we don't even really say that. And that's fine. That's great. But there's, you know, I think there might be something else that someone else is offended by. And you may not even realize that and I think that that's really something just to be conscious of I think it's it's not about like saying the right thing all the time. But just being more aware, like, hey, if this person was offended, I'm happy to change I get they are words like they're powerful, like Stacy said. But it's also like, we have so many different words in the English language that we can switch it up and do some still say what we're trying to say. And I think that that, to me, is what's really impressive about that.\n\n</p>\n<p><strong>Gen Ashley</strong><br />\nAnd then what I found as well, when I started changing, you know, my use of like, guys versus folks is that people who actually hear me or people I like email or whatever, or chat to kind of feel uncomfortable with that as well, because they're not used to hearing that. But in my mediation, I just stay with it. Because otherwise, you know, things are not gonna change if no one's started. So yeah, if you're doing it, then just stick with it. And hopefully, you know, more people will get influenced by it.\n\n</p>\n<p><strong>Ryan Burgess</strong><br />\nYou know, it's even like doing pronouns, which now I regret, we didn't start off doing that, but like saying your pronouns he, his her she, like think that that is awesome. Like, it's just now making it more like, more normal, it feels awkward. At first, I will admit, the first time I ever did it, it just felt weird. And it's like, that's okay, we should get we should feel uncomfortable. And that's okay. And it will get it will get less uncomfortable as we go. Yeah, definitely. So earlier, we'd kind of talked about if you saw something, you know, should you say something? Or how do you approach that? And how can you basically be an ally? And I'm curious, some of your thoughts on like, what are ways in which people may be shown up as an ally, or where you would like to see them show up as allies? You know, I'd love to hear some of your thoughts on that.\n\n</p>\n<p><strong>Stacy London</strong><br />\nI think some of the best things I've seen with allies ally ship is, is because if you're part of the more representative group, you have more, I guess, you know, power in that the burden shouldn't necessarily be on the person in smaller, represented groups. To do something about things that's quite a burden. And so to be a good ally is to, you know, if you see somebody say something in a meeting that isn't inclusive, or talk over somebody, or just have behavior that makes people feel uncomfortable, if you can call that out, or say something that's huge. That's, that's, that's, I think, really great because it starts to set an example and others will start to follow and amplify voices, like if somebody you know, if I'm, if I'm talking in a meeting, and I say something, and then it's ignored or talked over, someone could be like, hey, actually, I think, you know, Stacy's idea was really interesting. Why don't we dig into that further? Like, that's helpful because sometimes the, this sort of unconscious bias stuff comes in and it's like, maybe my idea wasn't listened to not necessarily because I said it, but because our unconscious bias and so if you amplify it that helps to start to erase it and so things like that, I think are really good for for ally ship.\n\n</p>\n<p><strong>Ryan Burgess</strong><br />\nOr when someone else takes your idea and raise it. Oh, it's like, oh, the idea that Stacy just shared. Yeah. Yeah, that's a good idea. Surely Go ahead.\n\n</p>\n<p><strong>Shirley Wu</strong><br />\nOh, yeah, I was gonna say, um, I actually really love how Stacy put it as the more representative group or the even a person that has more quote unquote, power in the organization. Because I don't think that if we're talking about inclusivity, like, I don't think it's just purely like race or gender or, you know, sexual orientation or anything like that. I think even like, I think there are points at which Maybe like people would, like maybe I be the most listened to person in the room. And then like, I want to make sure that like other people, even like, as a woman of color, maybe like, I'm just like an expert on the topic or something, and then I'm like, and then, um, and then I can try my best to make the space more welcoming, or highlight other people. So I guess all I'm trying to say is like, um, I, I really like what Stacey was saying that made me think of like, Ally is not just, you know, like, and one particular group of people, but like, we all can be an ally for someone else that might be stuck in a more difficult situation of or like, they don't feel like they can speak up as much. Um, but I will like to kind of like echo the whole, I think, when, let's say, like, if I'm in a position where I feel attacked, or trolled or whatever, it's oftentimes that if I speak up, I sound defensive, and then they like, lights up the fire, and to have someone else that's like, in my corner, like supporting me and backing me up. That's some of the more most like powerful feeling like empowering feeling. And I, I love that because like, I'm in my studio with my studio mates. And we have this pact of like, we'll always be in each other's corner of like, if we get online trolls or something. And, and I think that's, that is really helpful to know that, like, at any given time, I have friends or I have, you know, people in my corner,\n\n</p>\n<p><strong>Ryan Burgess</strong><br />\nI like that, that is awesome. And I think surely I like what you said too, is like having the people in your corner or even that it doesn't matter about race or gender or like that may not even be the group that's like maybe been smoking, like negatively to or whatever it is. But even people have power could be literally someone in a higher up position, right. And we all were in companies where you have a director, VP manager, and hopefully they are using that clout, because they do have clout Don't get it wrong, they do. And so like, how are they leveraging that for good, I can go a long way.\n\n</p>\n<p><strong>Gen Ashley</strong><br />\nYeah, we kind of covered that. Under the subject of having a sponsor. So we know about mentors, but really are people who ask your back and you defend you or whatever, you know, give you like better directions in terms of how you deal with things. Or it can might not even be like a sponsor, like a senior person. For example, if you're, you know, a guy who is, for example, getting this particular whatever package right from a company that, you know, you knew about a woman who's applying for the same role in your company or in a different c

1ompany, and ni few we kind of help the person realize that this is, you know, like the market rate they could we know, right? Women in general, are underpaid compared to men. So you know, if you can just simply, you know, helping that person realize that this is probably the package you should be like asking for, and is a big help you know, that that that is Alisha. Right. In simply because Sure, yeah, definitely helping that person, that woman in particular, not get the short end of the stick. I mentioned this in the chat earlier. But yeah, yeah, basically, that's another form of authorship.\n\n</p>\n<p><strong>Ryan Burgess</strong><br />\nI love that one too, because it is like knowing your worth is huge. Like, I think that that's the most important thing is understanding getting paid, what's the value? Like what's the market rate? And like, what are my peers getting paid? Especially when it we've seen underrepresented groups getting paid less, and it's just like, it's disheartening. They're doing the same job, probably even doing a better job. And but yet, still, they're getting paid less. One thing I wanted to ask you all too, is, you know, being an ally, like we talked about, like someone speaking up, so that, you know, you don't have to necessarily be the underrepresented group may not have to be the one that constantly is taking on that burden. I think there are times though, in situations like even surely you mentioned the conference, one where I could have stood up and like shame, the guy in front of everyone probably wouldn't have been a good thing. But I think it's like, when is the right time, because this this often goes through my head too, is you could also make the mistake of too much attention to it. And that could actually be a problem too. And so I think there are ways where you might even ask, you know, if Stacey something, I saw something egregious, or I'm like, do you want me to say something? Maybe it's like through slack? Or, you know, I could message her off the side or ask How would you like me to handle that in the future? Because I think that's important too. Because you don't want to just be you know, especially maybe in a white man, I just want to come in be like, I'm gonna save the world. Don't say, because like that can actually add to the problem. So I think it's important. I guess my point here is to also ask like your colleagues, how would you like me to handle the situation? Or maybe it's like saying it to the person who made the mistake just saying it behind the scenes, you know, pulling them aside, message them in Slack, whatever it is, I think that can go a long way to\n\n</p>\n<p><strong>Shirley Wu</strong><br />\nYeah, that's a really good point because I feel like there's a very fine line between ally ship and Savior like the Savior the Savior mentality. Yeah. So yeah, I love I think the definitely the asking the person so that they can be in charge of of how they want the the conflict resolved\n\n</p>\n<p><strong>Ryan Burgess</strong><br />\nor I know we're getting close to time I'm curious as maybe to as we're wrapping up the conversation, what's a piece of advice that you all would give, just to help our like our community, our companies, teammates, anything anything to really help be more inclusive? Like what's something that you think we've talked a lot about allyship. But I would love to hear a piece of advice that you would love to leave our listeners with.\n\n</p>\n<p><strong>Stacy London</strong><br />\nI think, for me, it's I guess, a long time ago, when I was in college, I did this, this thing called diversity trading or whatever. And this was like, in the late 90s. So it was kind of interesting that, you know, we talk a lot about it now. But back then I think it wasn't as talked about at all, like in companies and tech and stuff. So it was an interesting thing program that I did, and you go into dorm rooms, and you'd have people get together and talk about these topics. And one of the exercises we did was either and I think they still don't today, it's like you ask someone, when you were growing up, you know, were you able to go to a library? Or were you able to did your parents take you to go swimming, or there's all these like things that you can ask and, and you say step take a step forward, if you did, and it shows, it visually shows at the end of this exercise, what kind of privilege you've had growing up. And I thought it was a really powerful exercise to, to get people to understand what privileges and s

1o I guess my advice would be like, if you've never thought about privilege, or what it is, and what that means for you take some time to like, think about that. And I think that helps you become more empathetic, and realize how you can either become a better ally, or how you can do things differently.\n\n</p>\n<p><strong>Gen Ashley</strong><br />\nSo for me, again, I'd like to stress that it has to be a continuous education for everyone. Because that's the only way I think we can change or at least one of the best ways we can change ourselves in the environment and change it for you know, people who are, you know, not being included. And yes, again, you know, concrete actions, especially from companies, please do your don't just do signaling in just making or doing things so that you look good, there is definitely a need needed for supporting people who are working. In getting, getting more and more changes out there in terms of diversity and inclusion, you know, you have resources, so please, you know, do do use those resources.\n\n</p>\n<p><strong>Shirley Wu</strong><br />\nI what I was gonna say was just on the individual level of, I think, to what Jen has said, what CeCe has said, as opposed to what everybody has said about all of these conversations, or all these changes being very uncomfortable. From the very beginning, I've definitely gotten feedback about you know, languages that weren't, didn't feel inclusive, or just being educated about, you know, things that and all of them have always felt not only uncomfortable, but like, even with the best intention of the other person, I felt defensive. And so and it's, it's, I don't have to be defensive, they're like being so nice about it, but like, it's just kind of like it feels like I'm, I'm my, my person is being attacked. And I think it's that like to let go of that, like, I'm still on the journey of like, being better at taking feedback and just being open to listening to what the other person is trying to say, especially if the person is in that group that is the underrepresented group, or they are, you know, the group that was wronged. They're taking the time to explain it to me. So like being open to it and putting aside my own personal pride. Because that's what's like making me defensive. And just being like, let's listen to what's the important part of, they're just trying to make a better, like they're trying to make our relationship better, like our friendship better or, and so to focus on that and, and just be open to the listening without being defensive. That was my thing.\n\n</p>\n<p><strong>Ryan Burgess</strong><br />\nI love it. I'm probably just adding to some of these things. But I think for me, it's like getting comfortable being vulnerable to is because like we are going to make mistakes and we do have to have these hard conversations. You're going to find a fumble along like we is it's going to happen. You're going to say the wrong thing. Try and get comfortable with that and just be vulnerable and like like Charlie, you said take the feedback I let it sit and understand it and just be like, Okay, I made a mistake, and how do I move forward? But for me, too, it's like self reflection. I think like hearing Stacey talk about, like, what's my privileges or thinking through those things? And how do they show up? And? Yeah, definitely, I've had a lot of privileges. So I'm trying to think like, how does that show up differently for others? And so I think that's really good. There's so many resources online, I think, like, you have to be reading, I mean, not just online, there's amazing books out there videos, everything, articles. And I think for me, I've constantly had to read all these things to be more empathetic. I mean, here I am, like, you know, I'm usually I'm, like, look around, everyone's like me, I'm a man in tech, like that is, you know, typically, it's, that's who I look, or like my colleagues all look like. And so being the only is not something that I experience often. And so for me, I have to like over index on understanding and just learning from peers or doing a lot of research on my own. Because, yes, I don't also want to go. So teach me all the things like, you know, I don't know 

1what it's like, it's like, no, I mean, do that search myself, there's a lot of great materials out there. So for me self reflect, look, educate, there's so much material, I think that will continue to help us get better, it takes time, we're all in this journey at different points to you might be at Ground Zero, just realizing that I should do better. And that's great. I mean, people are further along, others haven't even thought about it. And so I think that's okay, we're gonna be all at different points.\n\n</p>\n<p><strong>Gen Ashley</strong><br />\nAnd one thing I was, I want to say to people who are making an effort is sometimes you won't, you know, people won't even believe you. People will probably think, oh, that's, you know, his or her agenda and all that. And you know, what, if you from the bottom of your heart, you know, you're doing something genuine? Just, you know, just continue with it. Don't listen to criticisms. Well, obviously, we all have to listen to criticism. Afterwards, right? But you know, like, don't get discouraged. If you think you're, you know, trying to do something good, then yeah, just continue with it. And yeah. And eventually, you get, you know, more support from people around you. Yeah, don't\n\n</p>\n<p><strong>Ryan Burgess</strong><br />\ndo it for credit, either. Because like, that's you, like you said is like you're gonna hear from trolls, and that kind of stuff. That criticism you can ignore. And, I mean, it's hard sometimes, but ignore that. But you're also done. You don't have to get credit for this. This is all the like little things that just go a long way and help the community and help everyone be more inclusive. Oh, this is awesome discussion. Like, thank you all, like we said, not an easy subject to talk about. It's, it is uncomfortable, and like even being on a panel where, you know, people are gonna be watching us and listening to us. It's like, Yeah, well, we could have said the wrong thing. We may even have said the wrong thing. But I think it's it takes a lot of courage from everyone. So thank you all for having this conversation. I hope to see more people having this conversation. No, thanks.\n\n</p>\n<p><strong>Gen Ashley</strong><br />\nThanks to all three of you for being here. Techno day, and yeah, we'd love to have more conversations like this in the future.\n\n</p>\n<p><strong>Stacy London</strong><br />\nAwesome. Thanks for all you do.\n\n</p>\n<p><strong>Ryan Burgess</strong><br />\nThank you, guys. Amazing. Yes. Thank you.\n\n</p>\n"}}}]);
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